@el.21396518 [temporary network]

[mrngstr]

[ The message is out and the AI (?) known as DAWN has reached out to all of New Amsterdam in reply to the call. In response, El has created a temporary network to facilitate communication between the Displaced and the presumed AI. The network and its contents will be deleted within seven days of the posting, at 21:59. That means there will be no referencing conversations past November 14th. There can be no private filters between PCs on this post, and pings will also not work.

Those who sign into the network will be prompted with a basic input box and text that displays "Enter your handle." For this post, the PCs will be able to create their own temporary handles when talking with DAWN.

El will chip in when needed, and the PCs are free to converse with themselves. Those who want to speak with DAWN can under this toplevel. ]

Displaced, this is a temporary network that I've set up for the express purpose of making contact with DAWN. It, and everything on it, will be wiped in one week's time.

I'll be keeping an eye on everything that's discussed here and intervene if necessary.

Comments

[strove]

[How to explain this to Jon without a) pissing off the AIs and b) failing to ignore the basic facts of this world's history and status. Because those are two things that she needs to be careful about at this time.]

No, the colonies are doing poorly because they're relying on grunt work and are seeing people as expendable. It's enforcing a social hierarchy. AIs have been gone from this world for 400 years. You're projecting a mindset onto the people that has been wiped out for centuries. AIs were likely never considered in the construction of the colonies because of what happened with the previous war.

The AIs killed humanity and almost won, Jon. I don't think even the AIs here are denying that fact. I don't know why they did it, and I suspect it's more complicated than we'll ever know. Plus, most of them are dead, so we can't ask their specific, personal reasoning. But 1.2 billion people died. The fear—while likely taken advantage of and used to support the world that resulted from it—has a basis in reality, and we can't suggest that the humans are at fault for being narrow in their thinking. That's foolish.

We're only able to talk to the AI because we're objective observers. This isn't our world. We don't have the same built-in biases, with the exception of those who have histories with AI and understand a little about them. And even then, I can't assume the AI I knew—her name was ALIE, by the way—is anything like Cassius and Lucifer.

We can't discount the fear of the people of this world just because we see what we believe to be a tidy solution. That's foolish. And assuming that the AIs are eager to be in service to humanity, that they can just be built to terraform planets and fix themselves?

You realize you're asking them to act in servitude to us, right?

[998]

Humans have killed more of humanity than anybody else. This planet fought three world wars before El was even built. We have as much reason to be afraid of each other as of them.

And I don't expect anyone do to anything for free. I wouldn't ask them to. I'm suggesting we make a deal. They must want something, or they wouldn't be here.

[strove]

Jon, you're simplifying the situation too much because you only see what you want to see. You can't just ignore that they have a reason to be afraid because you don't understand the depth of that fear. Right now, it sounds like you don't. Besides, we can't be arrogant enough to assume that we can make those compromises on their behalf. This isn't our world, even if some of us would like to keep it as our world in the long run.

Why they're here has to do with getting us into space and helping us explore, but it's not hard labor. Those are different lines, and I'm sorry, it seems like you're blurring it together because they may seem like they're one and the same to someone who doesn't know this world.

[998]

Don't presume you know what I think or believe, Clarke. I know how deep this kind of fear can go. That doesn't make it worth indulging.

What is hard labor for us could be as simple as a line of code for them. Again I wouldn't ask anyone here of anything they're not willing to do. You speak as if I'm making demands. I'm not.

The AI are a people of this world. They talk like people, make war like people, and they justify their actions to themselves like people. Our position is at this moment is between them and the humans that live here. We owe it to this world to try and broker a peace. Both sides have blood on their hands. If they both keep trying to take their revenge we'll all end up dead.

[strove]

It's worth indulging because the people of this world grew up with that fear. It's not a fear founded purely in hatred. If it were, we'd be having a very different conversation. It's a fear founded in knowing that people were nearly wiped off this planet during a war. That you continue to overlook that because it doesn't suit your purposes shows that you're not equipped to even have this conversation.

You think it's a simple line of code. I know you don't come from a world with technology. I don't think it's as simple as that. For one, neither Cassius nor El appear to be built for this purpose. I think it's safe to assume for whatever other AI is out there. So, the next thing you'd have to do is build an AI for specifically this purpose, already setting them into a position of servitude.

We have no position between the AIs and the people, nor do we have a voice with the latter. We aren't here to broker peace, and it may not even be up to us to presume that we can do that. Don't make the error of assuming that we're more important to this world than we are.

And before you assume I don't want peace: it's not that. I'm tired of people taking things I say when I point out the flaw in what they're proposing. I want the AI to live, but I don't want to go to them offering a live in servitude with people, because that's precisely what you're setting up here. That isn't even what Cassius is requesting here, nor is it what their actions have stated.

[998]

You know nothing of me, my world, or what I'm proposing. The fear you speak of nearly got me killed, so you will forgive me if I have little patience for it. With as much as I told you about the Rebellion, how could you think it unfamiliar to me? It takes more courage to stop a fight than start one.

And I have no illusions about my importance in this world. My time here has taught me that much can be accomplished covertly, and with patience. I don't know why I thought I should be having this conversation with you. The heat must be getting to me.

I will not see the AI, or anyone, enslaved, by my hand or any other. I would sooner go to war myself than let that happen.

I have tolerated your manner until now because it is clear you mean no harm by it. But you cannot tell people what they think and expect them to listen.

We will not speak again on this until I have taken counsel with more senior operatives. Try not to irritate anyone with the means to hurt you.

[strove]

So, am I meant to take that as a thinly veiled threat?

Or am I supposed to sit back and pretend that you know what you're saying, because you think I'm digging into the depths of your world beyond knowing you don't have a lot of experience with technology? Because that's all that it is. I didn't bring up any of that information because it wasn't relevant. What was relevant is that you don't know a thing about the creation of AIs, their purpose, or how they function. You only know what idealistic plan you've come up with, that you intend to force on everyone else.

You weren't ever tolerating me, Jon. You just didn't like that I knew more than you on a matter.

Oh, and final note? I'm not in Morningstar. Good luck with those "senior operatives" and what to do with me. I hope I'm not in trouble.

[998]

Again you misunderstand me. I know you're not in Morningstar. I'm not threatening you. And I'm not forcing a plan on you or anyone.

I intend to discuss this with those whose opinion I value. I should have done that straightaway. It was a mistake to try and engage you.

This world is not your world. These AI are not your AI. I don't care that you know more than me in some matters. I don't believe this is one.

It may be that you are right and any form of what I suggest is impossible. As you yourself told me, you're no engineer. Nor are you much of a diplomat. If Peggy and Fitz see no merit in my idea I won't pursue it. I wouldn't even have the means. I don't know what you think I think I'm planning. I had a thought, and I was stupid enough to share it with you. I promise you I regret it.

...and I wouldn't try and 'get you in trouble' for disagreeing with me even if you were in Morningstar. You insult me by suggesting that I would. You've insulted me half a dozen times in this conversation and I don't know if you understand that. That's all I mean to say--it's my hope that someday you learn when you're being rude, before you're rude to the wrong person.

[strove]

No, you took my explanation as an insult. That wasn't being rude. You found ways to bypass what I was saying.

And a word of advice? Talk to the actual AIs among our numbers. Or even talk to El. Peggy and Fitz aren't of this world, either.

I'm done here, Jon. Which should be good for you, so you no longer have to tolerate how rude I've been to you for so long.

[998]

I lost my temper. I'm sorry. It was childish of me, and I do mean to speak with El. But you can't expect everyone else to listen to you criticize their words when you won't listen to what anybody has to say about yours.

[strove]

I listen fine. I can't account for people applying ulterior motives to what I say and do.

As a word of advice? Don't apologize and tack on a "but," Jon. It makes it seem a lot less sincere and like you're trying to get in the last word.

[That last bit is petty and is criticizing his words, but it does hurt that he can't apologize without digging the knife in deeper.

Frankly, Clarke is hurt—implying that everything up to this point had been little more than tolerating her. Implying that her opinion has no value simply because she pointed out the flaws in it. Assuming that she was "criticizing his words," when it was more that his ideas were dangerous and narrow-sighted. She's hurt. Because where he had seemed to get why things on Damian's post went a certain way, now he's taken it out to weaponize against her.]

[998]

Clarke, the only reason I got upset was because it sounded like you were putting words in my mouth, telling me what I was thinking and what it was I wanted to do. If you had just said it was a bad idea, I would have listened.

[strove]

[Sorry, Jon, she's too busy absorbing weird golden-eyed apemooses and can't come to the phone.]

@rey

[forcevisions]

What are you doing?

[998]

I'm not doing anything.

[forcevisions]

Not doing anything looks an awful lot like threatening someone who's on our side, who's trying to help you understand.

[ what IS IT with people from westeros and hating to be corrected in public when they don't understand this world's culture? ]

People are dying. We have more important things than to fight over pride and who knows what.

[998]

[targaryens man]

I didn't threaten her! I just said she was irritating! She said I wanted to force people into servitude!

[forcevisions]

It sounded an awful lot like you did. Talking about what AIs can be used for after they fought a war over that, one we don't fully know the history of.

[ No one does. ]

And telling her not to irritate anyone who can hurt her makes it sound like you want to hurt her, Jon.

[ he's a soldier, so she feels like that can't be an accident. he must know. ]

[998]

Why would I want to hurt her? I was trying to help her. She could get herself killed talking to some people like she was talking to me.

And I wasn't talked about what the AI could be used for. I was talking about what they could do. Why we should try to work with them. What we stand to gain from helping them, from getting them to care about us.

We don't even know why they fought that war. It's something I mean to ask El about. It's not something Clarke knows any more about than I do.

[forcevisions]

[ only because of clarke's intervention, rey doesn't persist. it's not her business if clarke thinks it'll just make things worse for her. but it doesn't change her mind that jon's out of line. and it doesn't change that she'd been hoping to make progress with clarke in talking about whether or not the displaced were likely to eat each other over petty disagreements, and now here's a petty disagreement that escalated into a threat, intended or otherwise.

it's not promising for rey being right on that particular dispute. not one bit. ]

[strove]

[After reading Jon's response to Rey.]

It's okay. If you don't mind, I'd rather there not be a public debate over what I was trying to achieve here or point out. I've had enough of that lately. And I can see this going in that direction.